Yin Style Bagua & Training with Real Weapons
this is a long page, please remember to scroll down for all weapons
After Dr. Xie Peiqi passed away in 2003, each of us involved in the deep documentation process of his life and work had to look for the next step in fully recording this incredible art. He Jinbao, perhaps the most skilled Chinese martial artist alive, actively pursued his vision of how the martial side of this system should be taught–a different direction than Dr. Xie’s. I spent 2 years training with and documenting Dr. Xie’s first and oldest surviving disciple, Liu Shichang.
Liu Shichang trained with Dr. Xie in a time when challenge matches were common and gangs of Red Guards might invade your house at any time. Always ready, Liu believed in practicality and keeping weapons in every room, under couches, behind cabinets and anywhere else easy to grab but hard to spot. His incredible warrior’s spirit was infectious, and helped me understand that YSB is not a path of training toward personal cultivation, but of ‘realness’.
This coincided with my desire to reforge the Bagua Large Sabers which were out of stock. The ones we had made were excellent for strength training, but they were practice weapons, not real weapons. I spent several years trying out many different manufacturers’ swords and sabers, but all were not designed or weighted for real training, let alone actual use. Realizing that just as Chinese martial arts had lost its focus of fighting to either movies or exercise routines, the providers of its weaponry had lost their focus of making real weapons. Real weaponry and their usage seemed to be in the Japanese and Philipino martial arts alone.
One company stood out in making real weapons for real use: Cold Steel. They carried an incredibly strong line of Japanese weapons and knives, as evidenced by their Solid Proof videos where they use their weapons to cut through sides of beef, hoods of cars, and bend them with weights to prove their strength. They also were interested in reproducing historical weapons from Europe and elsewhere.
By this time my own weapons practice had switched to training with real weapons completely, using the ATS Large Saber simply for strength and coordination practice. Unable to find acceptable Chinese weapons, and I embraced Dr. Xie’s philosophy that any weapon follows the skill of the hand, and if the hand is skilled in Bagua, then any weapon is a Bagua weapon. I began to train with Japanese katanas, European swords, Philipino escrima sticks, bowie knives, long and short staves. I first modified He Jinbao’s saber form to make more sense within Bagua and Men Baozhen’s book, and then began to work in Xie’s concepts of saber training–ATS unfortunately never had a chance to document his beliefs on weapons practice.
The greatest teacher I had as the form evolved into my own, however, was training with a live blade. It is one thing to walk through a form of flowery or superfluous moves with a sharp sword, but another to attempt it at fighting speed. For any of you who train YSB and have understood what Hun Yuan (Flowing the Moves was the translation in the videos) really means and requires, you will understand what kind of commitment it takes to do so with a weapon that promises maiming or death at the slightest mistake. Thus, at the cost of several scars, I ended up with the weapons form I now train, modified for sabers and single edged swords; double weapons, like butterfly knives, Gurkha Knives, and escrima sticks; and staff weapons such as staves and spears.
Everything I do in Yin Style Bagua (and most aspects of my life) return to Dr. Xie. He only believed in training Hun Yuan, using Dao Yin (Internal Cultivation) practices for strength development; for him, longer forms were memory devices, but true skill came from training its pieces; and there was never a ‘this is wrong or this is right’ in what you did, criticism and correction was always on how one did it and if it made sense in the situation at hand. As I have quietly watched the evolution of YSB since his passing, his words given as a teacher in a class or a friend in his home seem more important with the passage of time.
Andrew Nugent-Head, January 2010
A Warning & Disclaimer
All of the weapons below are real, and the edges on the blades will slice through a finger, arm or leg with barely a touch. I have learned fear, faced that fear, and come out the other end as a more humble and better practitioner. This is why ATS has decided to carry them as a part of disseminating the traditional arts. But I have felt the bite of steel and wondered whether the wound would be permanent more than once. Do not be foolish or irresponsible, as the damage and death these weapons can give to you or someone else is very immediate. Handle them as you would handle a loaded rifle, always aware of which way the blade is facing, and never wield them in the wrong circumstances or environment.
The Japanese Nodachi
This is now without doubt my favorite two handed weapon to train with. Longer in overall length than the Large Bagua Saber ATS used to produce, it is the best crossover to the Large Saber practices. The Nodachi, however, has a much longer handle and shorter blade, taking some adjustment but encouraging greater two handed power strikes and space clearing swings. The smaller width of the blade changes how it rolls around the hand but requires full focus to not cut the fingers.
It is the most expensive weapon we are carrying, but the very best one. We are reselling it at a 30% discount from Cold Steel’s price to make it as affordable as possible for martial artists wanting the best real weapon for large saber practice.
View a video of the Nodachi here. Purchase the Nodachi from our store here.
Name:Warrior Series (Nodachi)
Blade Length:34"
Overall Length:57"
Steel:1055 Carbon
Weight:69.6 oz
Handle:23" Samé (Ray Skin) Handle w/ Black Braid & Brass Menuki
Scabbard:Black Lacquered Wood Scabbard
Cold Steel’s Price: $800
ATS Resell Price: $560
The Chinese Butterfly Knives
After purchasing these incredible knives, I immediately set work to creating a weapons form variation for double weapons (matching weapons, one in each hand). This is the only Chinese weapon I have found so far that matches the quality of the furnishings (handle, wrapping, guard) to the quality of Cold Steel’s blades. They are long and heavy enough to really accentuate their chopping potential, and their weight adds great momentum to swings and larger moves.
Simply put, these are my favorite double hand weapon, a must for Bagua practitioners looking to explore this kind of practice. They are well made, correctly balanced, Cold Steel sharp and a Chinese weapon!
Video Coming. Purchase the Butterfly Knives from our store here.
Name:Butterfly Swords (pair)
Blade Length:15"
Overall Length:20 1/4"
Steel:1055 Carbon
Weight:32 oz
Handle:5 1/4" Cord Wrapped Handle w/ Samé (Ray Skin)
Scabbard:Leather Scabbard
Cold Steel’s Price: $400
ATS Resell Price: $300
The Chinese War Sword
The Chinese War Sword is small and light compared to the practice saber, but is the actual model of the Da Dao used by the famous 29th Army, the garrison that protected Beijing. Known as the Da Dao Dui, or Big Saber Brigade, these were the famous soldiers who trained rope climbing, Chinese Wrestling and this war sword to be the best close quarters hand to hand combat army soldiers in China. It has an incredible feel in the hands, and as this is a real sword, I have taken through training sessions in bamboo forests as well as hacking through pine trees. The long handle encourages a strong two hand grip, and the wide blade allows more ease of rolling along the hand. It is just missing another two feet of blade to make it perfect, but the small size also allows great one handed use in stronger people.
This is the only saber style sword carried by Cold Steel. It is a famous part of China’s Da Dao history and has a great feel in the hands.
View a video of the Chinese War Sword here. Purchase the Chinese War Sword from our store here.
Blade Length:23 1/4"
Overall Length:37 3/4"
Steel:1055 Carbon
Weight:57.7 oz
Handle:14 1/2" Cord Wrapped Handle
Scabbard:Leather Scabbard
Cold Steel’s Price: $500
ATS Resell Price: $375
The German Grosse Messier
The Grosse Messier is known as the Big Knife in German, though obviously much smaller (and sharper) than our YSB ‘Big Knife’ practice blade. Its lightness takes a bit of adjustment, but then you discover it is much more agile and quick than the practice saber. It is also of a much more realistic size if you are looking to train with something you would actually use in a fight. The handle to blade ratio and wider blade width make this sword adapt well to Large Saber practices.
This is the most affordable of the Cold Steel swords ATS is carrying, priced to help inexperienced practitioners begin their training with live blades or real quality. Easy to make friends with and easy to adapt to this or any saber form, the Gross Messier is an excellent weapon for the YSB saber practitioner to own.
View a video of the Gross Messier here. Purchase the Gross Messier from our store here.
Name:Grosse Messer
Blade Length:32"
Overall Length:42 1/4"
Steel:1055 Carbon
Weight:64 oz
Handle:10 1/4" Rosewood
Cold Steel’s Price: $300
ATS Resell Price: $225
The Japanese O-Tanto Knife
With a double weapon form developed, I began to adapt it to as many weapons as possible. In Bagua, famous double weapons were the Half Moon knives and deer antlers. The need was for a longer blade than most knives, but small enough to justify double weapon use. By purchasing two of these Tanto knives, I had a perfect double hand weapon that was much more discreet than the larger brass handled Butterfly Swords. The black scabbard does not draw attention, and they slip easily into a bag for carrying. The smaller and lighter size means adapting the chops of the Butterfly Swords to slashes with the Tanto, teaching how to change momentum and application to different styles of weapons. Cold Steel blade quality ensures a razor edge and blade strength to match the beautiful Japanese furnishings.
Video coming soon. Purchase the O-Tanto from our store here.
Name: Warrior Series (O Tanto-single)
Blade Length:13 1/4"
Overall Length:19 1/4"
Steel:1055 Carbon
Weight:18.5 oz
Handle:6" Samé (Ray Skin) Handle w/ Black Braid & Brass Menuki
Scabbard:Black Lacquered Wood Scabbard
Cold Steel’s Price: $375
ATS Resell Price: $280 single knife
ATS Resell Price: $525 two knives
The Philipino Escrima Stick
The next step in double weapons was finding one that was not a blade, nor even made of metal. Deer antlers aside, the perfect fit was the escrima stick, already a double handed weapon in its own culture. While these are not made of traditional rattan, the polypropylene makes it virtually unbreakable. I have used it to smash through pine branches and Cold Steel’s video features it smashing through cement blocks. The actual sticks are a bit long for double weapon use, but they state it is for cutting down to the correct length for the user. I personally prefer to choke up on the mock bamboo finish to leave a small section below the hand as a butt for striking.
Very affordable and an excellent alternative to bladed weapons.
Video coming soon. Purchase the Escrima sticks from our store here.
Name: Escrima Stick
Weight: 15.6 oz
Overall Length: 32"
Thickness: 1" Diameter
Cold Steel’s Price: $30
ATS Resell Price: $24 single stick
ATS Resell Price: $45 two sticks
The Nepalese Gurhka and American Bowie Knives
Once the weapon is understood as an extension of the hand, and that the shape and position of the hand reflects its best use, then any double weapon can be adapted into the form and practice. The length, balance, weight, shape and edge all define whether the wielder stresses chopping, slashing, cutting, stabbing, smashing or bludgeoning strikes. I began to train with two of just about everything available in a hardware store: hatchets, hammers, garden machetes, and even large Chinese kitchen cleavers.
The Nepalese Gurhka and American Bowie knives above reflected my desire to find traditional weapons that were designed for use and actually were in use by real people in real places when knives were seen as tools to rely on and not for ceremonial or decorative use. While Cold Steel obviously spruced up these traditional knives with fancy furnishings and a choice of steel for the Gurhka knives, they stayed true to their original design and function. They prove that clearly in their Solid Proof DVDs, putting these and all their blades through cutting and stress tests I have not seen anywhere else.
These are great weapons to expand upon the base form and applications of the double weapon Butterfly Knife form, as well as belonging to a fascinating past.
Video coming soon. Purchase the Gurhka & Bowie knives from our store here.
Name:Gurkha Kukri San Mai III®
Blade Length:17"
Overall Length:17"
Steel:VG-1 San Mai III®
Weight:22 oz
Handle:5" Long Kraton®
Sheath:Secure-Ex® Sheath
Cold Steel’s Price: $650
ATS Resell Price: $450 single knife
ATS Resell Price: $845 two knives
Name:Gurkha Kukri
Blade Length:12"
Overall Length:17"
Steel:SK-5 High Carbon
Weight:22 oz
Handle:5" Long Kraton®
Sheath:Secure-Ex® Sheath
Cold Steel’s Price: $300
ATS Resell Price: $225 single knife
ATS Resell Price: $420 two knives
Name:Natchez Bowie
Blade Length:11 3/4"
Overall Length:17 1/8"
Steel:VG-1 San Mai III®
Weight:19.9 oz
Handle:5 3/8" Long 300 Series Stainless w/ Black Linen Micarta
Sheath:Black Leather Sheath
Cold Steel’s Price: $670
ATS Resell Price: $470 single knife
ATS Resell Price: $870 two knives
Name:Laredo Bowie® San Mai III®
Blade Length:10 1/2"
Overall Length:15 11/16"
Steel:VG-1 San Mai III®
Weight:16.3 oz
Handle:5 3/16" Long Polished Black Linen Micarta
Sheath:Black Leather Sheath
Cold Steel’s Price: $600
ATS Resell Price: $420 single knife
ATS Resell Price: $780 two knives
Adapting Other Weapons & Purchasing Other Cold Steel Products through ATS
Once one grasps the essence of Bagua not as a form but a method of training an application, a trip to the hardware store or garden center yields a car full of possibilities to train with. That being said, rarely are they made well or balanced correctly, increasing the chance of them breaking, losing their edge or causing damage to your wrist, elbow and shoulder by being poorly weighted.
After the original fascination with turning everything into a weapon, including lead pipes and monkey wrenches, I returned to exploring the different weapons carried by Cold Steel from other cultures and time periods. These, at least, would have been designed on actual models, weighted for use as a weapon and carrying the quality of steel Cold Steel became famous for. What I found, however, was that not all products in their catalog reflect the quality of the weapons above. A good example is their naval dirk. It seemed a perfect match for a double weapon adaptation, but I gave it to my children upon opening the box. While sharp, the blade seemed visually weak, and the furnishings looked like they had come from a Michael’s Craft store. Moreover, they were poorly fitted with edges that dug into the hand. From purchasing and using their weapons for several years now, I have come to realize that their Japanese collection is impeccable for its price (while I did not place the katanas above, they make a nice change from the Nodachi or Gross Messier); the more obvious medieval blades and turn of the century cutlasses were acceptable; and their knives of every shape and size is how they built their reputation. But many other things simply seemed to be catalog fillers or appealing to collectors interested in period pieces and unconcerned with actual use.
ATS is glad to order for you any product on their site that we do not actively carry at a 30% discount from their Suggested Retail Price and provide free shipping–but buyer beware–I can only speak to the weapons I have personally spent time with. Visit their website or order their catalog and see the incredible amount of items they have. If there is something you would like to try out, we will order it in through our reseller account and then ship it straight to you. This allows us to keep our stock down and thus prices low, and it allows you to try out items at a huge mark down from what it would cost you to purchase directly. Just make sure to let us know what you thought of the item in terms of quality, adaptability, and pleasure of use. Their staggering array of inventory is beyond one person to explore completely. Through a concerted effort of serious practitioners, however, ATS could build a list of the better and worse weapons they carry here for all to benefit from.
To order a Cold Steel product not pictured here through us, simply:
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1.Send us an email to this address with the Item Name & Number;
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2.We will calculate the correct cost and send you to the Direct Payment page;
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3.Once your order is paid for, we process your order and ship it straight to you upon arrival!
Below are two other Chinese weapons I have purchased and like, though they currently do not fit into the forms and have furnishings that do not match the quality of the blade. I do own them and like them, and as they carry Cold Steel blades, they are best quality out there.
The Chinese Sword & Sword Breaker
A few of us have the original swords designed by He Jinbao almost 10 years ago. While attractive, they were only suited for practice, being of poor quality steel with blunt edges. He invested a great deal of effort in trying to find a supplier of steel that could make something to his specification, but never was successful.
The Cold Steel Chinese swords are exactly what we had been looking for. Flexible enough to bend 30˚ and then spring back into shape without warping; strong enough to punch through a car hood or door; and sharp enough to slice through a carcass of meat. They were just small for Yin Style Bagua standards.
In all honesty, I was quite disappointed when I first opened the box. Aside from being short compared to what I was used to, the fittings were very ‘Chinese made’, seemingly slapped together in a factory like the ones we had our sabers made in. The wood did not fit neatly into the handle, creating sharp edges to cut the hand; the screws holding the handle together were made of a different metal and obviously lower quality; and the decorative finishes and scabbard made it look like something you might find in a Kung Fu shop down in Chinatown catering to tourists and 14 year olds just discovering Bruce Lee.
But when I swung it, it was a whole different story. It had excellent balance, better than the swords He had made and felt great in the hand. I then took it into a bamboo forest and sliced through every thickness there was with incredible ease. If you can afford to own it, it is worth owning simply because it carries a real blade and is the closest thing to a Chinese sword currently out there on the markets. I look forward to adapting the weapons form to double bladed weapons and having this be the main weapon of choice.
As to the Chinese Sword Breaker, I have no idea what it is, nor has anyone I have asked ever seen or trained with one. But it is a Chinese weapon, and I collect those for research purposes. Basically, it seems to be a long weighted club-rod on a sword handle with a nasty point on the end. While I am not sure what to do with it weapon-wise, I do like it as a training tool–it has much more of the weight old school Yin Style Bagua practitioners are used to working with.
Purchase the Chinese Sword & Sword Breaker from our store here.
Name:Gim Sword
Blade Length:30"
Overall Length:37 1/4"
Steel:1055 Carbon
Weight:36 oz
Handle:7 1/4" Rosewood
Scabbard:Hardwood Scabbard w/ Brass Fittings
Cold Steel’s Price: $500
ATS Resell Price: $350
Name:Chinese Sword Breaker
Blade Length:30"
Overall Length:38 1/4"
Steel:1055 Carbon
Weight:51.3 oz
Handle:8 1/4"
Scabbard:Hardwood Scabbard w/ Nickle-Silver Fittings
Cold Steel’s Price: $450
ATS Resell Price: $325
Preserving, Documenting & Disseminating China’s Traditional Knowledge
The Association for Traditional Studies
